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Blocktalk Podcast #2 With James Groves, MD, Indigo Swan

Blocktalk Podcast #2 with James Groves, MD, Indigo Swan

Welcome to the transcript of the second episode of the Blocktalk Podcast with James Groves, MD of Indigo Swan. It is verbatim so there are repetitions and verbal anomalies that you wouldn’t otherwise expect.

You can also listen to the Blocktalk podcast on Spotify, iTunes and Google. And you can listen on the CPL YouTube channel.

The blog talk podcast started because of my passion for the property management industry. I wanted to start a conversation add some value within the industry, with a diverse range of people and professionals who can add something extra. As we start out my aim is that the podcast offers some useful insight into a variety of views, opinions, thoughts and forces from our guests who include business leaders, and industry experts. If you enjoy the podcast and want to find out any other information, head on over to Brian welsh.co Uk

Hello, welcome to another edition of Blocktalk podcast with me Brian Welsh and Jax Bruce Jax. How are you today?

Good Thanks, Brian. Good spots not so nice way let’s do this. We’re recording this but yeah, it’s all good.

It is the weather is turning. Okay, so today we have the pleasure of talking to James groves, who has been managing director of Indigo Swan for two and a half years. His aim is to be the best manager and leader he can be. He wants to motivate, inspire, develop and coach people to reach their personal and professional goals whilst at the same time achieving the goals of the business. James, great to have you on how you doing,

Brian? I am wonderful friend, you’re so much for having me on and Jack’s as well. love being here. Happy to be on on this on this podcast with one of my favorite people from Scotland. So it’s good.

Thanks for that. I’m going to repeat something I said to you just before we started recording and that is the last time that I I saw you was about 1130 at night, a night before a PMS conference drinking jack daniels and coke and I don’t even drink jack daniels and coke. So

long time we covered you know night grind, don’t

we? Yeah. make any sense right now? Well,

well, we’ll make up for it when we can get back up.

Yeah, yeah, let’s hope so. So first, first question for you, James. How, how have you coped with the pandemic? And how do you think has impacted the future role of the office?

Yeah, so I mean, I think the like, like, everybody has been challenging, in a lot of different ways. From from a business perspective, we’ve done well, I’m not gonna say that we haven’t we’ve, we’ve done well, I’ve been very thankful for the understanding of our client base. And, you know, where there has been certain challenges, you know, maybe our service, we wanted them to be for free for a year and a bit. But we, you know, we have the understanding, we were able to still offer very good service, we were fortunate that a lot of our client base was in sectors that weren’t necessarily as impacted by COVID as others. But within the Hospitality and Tourism space, we, we had a look at what we could do for them, helping them with, you know, maybe it was pausing their billing for a few months, having a look at the fees that were charged, and just helping out as much as we could, for businesses that were maybe more impacted. for profit from an indigo Swan perspective, we had the challenge of working from home we’ve never worked before. So on the 23rd of March, you know, that was it, we was working at home, our head of Ops, and he had done an amazing job plotting and predicting on a spreadsheet when we might be from home. And he was right. So he still dines on that on that to this day. We were home you know, or 2122. And it was fine. You know, with the help of teams and zoom and all that sort of stuff. It was fine. We you know, we said calendars we nice care packages out to the guys the challenges, but the training because people to get out their houses and exercise. And we were doing all of that sort of stuff really trying to keep I suppose our you know, our award winning culture, indigo Swan alive as best as we could and a little bit of a different way. I think for me, you can’t replace the culture, the collaboration, and everything that comes with being together in office, that’s just not possible. You can’t do that. But there were positive, there were positives, and to the degree that there were opportunities where people could just get their head down. You know, we could work on maybe some projects that we hadn’t had the opportunity to, because when everybody’s together, it all just goes a bit crazy. You know, and we could really focus in on on spending a little bit more time on some of our clients and of our marketing. We launched a video series on TV. And we just tried to make the most of the opportunity. Because I think that’s what it was there was opportunity during that time we spoke a lot of our competitors sort of almost hibernate disappeared. And for us we very much wanted to keep your business as usual approach make sure that we COVID as as horrible and as tragic as it was, from a business perspective. We wanted to make sure we claimed that opportunity and looked at it from that point of view and we did well with that secondary question moving forward as far as the office is concerned, I feel the future for integration is a hybrid model. We’re back The Office on Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays, we work from home on a Monday and a Friday, I’d like to roll out of bed on a Monday and you can log off the Friday and already be at home. So having Wednesdays and Thursdays in the office worked really nicely for us. That’s the opportunity to collaborate, the opportunity to do the team meetings, and anything else that you know, two or more members, you need work on face to face together. So for being at home, a model will work well. And I think flexibility with that in the workplace is going to be key for people that are looking for jobs and opportunities in the future. And we obviously want to make sure that we’re embracing that and leading by example.

Yeah, I think that’s the because, you know, previous if anyone had said to me can I cannot, you know, I’m going to offer everyone to three days a week in the office week at home, you would you would have looked at them. Like it just didn’t happen. But But now that we’ve been forced into it, and, you know, I you know, okay, I productivity may differ at times and just need to learn how to deal with it, you know?

Yeah, I think so. And you find time is a bit you know, as a business owner, business leader, you’ve got, you’ve got to trust your people. You know, if you’re creating people that you don’t trust, you probably have to ask yourself the question, why did you recruit them in the first place? Yeah, you know, if you’ve got that culture of trust with your business, and it goes, once, you know, first value is happiness First you want, you want people to be happy, and you’ve got that trust that supports the happiness, then you should be able to allow them to work from home, you know, we probably wouldn’t have done it unless we were forced into it. Don’t get me wrong, but I’ve been forced into it. And having that trust within the workforce, there are definitely some positives that have come out of it. And it’s now for me making the best of both working at home and working in the office for everybody involved.

Yeah, sure. Sure. So you’ve been with Indigo swarm for over 11 years. Do you have your first day? I was the business developed over the

the cool isn’t. It feels I’m worn out. But yeah, it’s hard. I mean, I joined Indigo Swan during the recession. I historically, I worked for a finance company, based in Nigeria, indigo 22, based as well, we were, we were a finance broker, we did mortgages, loans, etc. Then the recession kicked in. And that was a difficult time for many. I survived the call, but I knew there was an opportunity to maybe look at doing something different than the one opportunity for my cousin Emily came up, and I jumped here because I said to myself, you know, whatever I do next, after the recession, I thought, whatever I do next, I need to do something that people are always going to meet. People always gonna need energy. And, you know, I remember my first day we were in a bit of a woodshop office, or in a service building and knowledge, there was five of us in what can only be explained as like a box room. And, you know, we had to do a bit of everything, you know, we were start our business, we had to go out and find business, we had to, you know, gather the relevant information from the energy suppliers, we had to sell the contracts to the customers process them, you know, make sure they go live. And if and, you know, we were doing a little bit of everything, five minutes at a time. But it was an exciting time, I think when you start a business, and I say this to people I know who gets busy now, was it’s very stressful, there’s a lot of worry, it’s very hard days. At the same time, it is very exciting. And I think from my, from my first day onwards, I was excited about the potential of Indigo Swan, I was excited about what we could achieve and excited about how I my opinion weekers, we can hopefully help to change our industry, which is not always looked at in the best light. Sadly, that is due to some rogue companies out there doing doing what we do. And we felt we had an opportunity to do it in a much more open, honest, and transparent way. So Mike Simon there was there on day, 111 years ago, is still there, if even more so today. And I feel we’ve had a positive run and we will continue to hopefully grow and have even more positive days ahead.

Yeah, good. Good. Say So how have you personally developed over that time? So professionally? And personally, I suppose from a development point of view, I mean, you talk about you talk about wanting to be the best manager and leader that you can be. So how has How have you grown over that?

Oh, yeah, I think it’s interesting. Yeah, I was lucky, I was lucky in my previous previous company in finance coming out, I was pretty, I was lucky to be in some leadership roles there. But then coming to Indigo Swan, you know, I had to, I had to take a step back, I had to just get back to the pool. And I think what was interesting for me and my journey was, you know, going from a leadership position to then getting back on the shop floor again. And building something from the ground up to then getting back to a leadership position in the future was my biggest learning almost came in that period of time in the middle, you know, because I had a time to, as a leader, you sometimes run out of time to reflect and you run out of time to think about what you’ve done and what you could do better. And, you know, for me having that period of time in the middle where I wasn’t actually responsible for anybody other than what I was doing in the business really gave me an opportunity to Reflect on my leadership journey up until that point, and gave me some stuff to really sort of think about when when that opportunity arose again in the future. That was a big thing for me professionally. And as a leader of people as well, being able to get in at the grassroots, so to speak, and do all of the different roles, that now we have different people in the business doing, you know, just really helps you with your experience, and really helps you with knowledge and understanding and, you know, allows you to be a good leader and allows me in my case, now to be a good Managing Director, because I always says, there’s a lot of accidental leaders in the world where they’ve become a leader, because they were really good at their job. But that’s fine. But do they actually have the skill set to be a good leader, you know, you might find that you actually, the average salesman is actually a better leader, because they’ve got the relevant traits that you that you need. So, you know, for me, it was nice to have the experience of all these different types of roles in order to be able to have that experience when it came to leading the team, and then now leading the company in the future. And that was, that was a vital period of time over those sort of initial two to three years of business. Personally, yeah, I mean, I wasn’t in a great happy place back then 11 years ago, you’re excited the session was on that, that that relation, and deploy even previous company. For full transparency, I got divorced, I was over way it was, it wasn’t quite, you know, now, I’m married to a wonderful portaria we’ve just had a baby on call now that we called Sebastian, you know, Managing Director of a successful energy consultancy that I believe is doing amazing things. And I’m in a very happy place. And you know, if I look back 11 years, I almost don’t recognize who that person was. So forever thankful to the opportunity that Indigo has given me not not just professionally, but also how is boosted my life personally, as well.

But brilliant, brilliant, that’s great sense, says, Brian. So Indigo spot is very focused on sustainability. Yeah, why would you go down this route? What successes have you had? And where do you see this going? in the future? Yeah, of

course, I mean, to be perfect as your mind, you can’t ignore it. You know, you know, in all fairness, we’re, you know, we’re an energy consultancy, you know, we call ourselves energy enthusiasts, you know, we are, we are infused gastic, about energy. So, for me, the sustainable piece just comes back, we have to be talking about it, we want to be talking about it, you know, we want to be out there being you know, one of the one of the companies who are promoting sustainability and promoting green energy, you know, and making sure people are having a think about it. For me, you know, I want the world to be a better place for the next generation. And one of the ways of that being the cases is through being sustainable. And, you know, through generating your own power, if you can, through the use of the wind, or freely use, you know, and all the other things, you know, for electric vehicles of different things like that, you know, all of these different types of technology are going to make the world a better place for the next generation. And, you know, if, for me, we as a company, and me personally can play a part in that and we can talk about it and offer thought leadership and set an example, then that’s in that we most definitely want to be doing. I think sustainability was the has been around for a while, and everyone’s on a netzero journey to 2050. There’s a lot of unanswered questions out there. I feel things dolphin has a lot of knowledge gaps, and things like that. And I think for me, it’s probably the early part of this journey. You know, we’re having great conversations with clients at the moment and a question that you might ask later that I can, I can shed some more light on that. But for me, it’s about having, it’s about having an option for all of our clients, when it comes to anything, they need help when it comes to sustainability, whether that’s they need green energy, we could provide it if they want to have a wind farm installed. And we can provide, you know, whatever it might be, from a sustainability point of view, I want to make sure we’ve got in house experts, we’ve got partners that we work with, who can offer a great service around it, because there’s no doubting it in my mind that go between now and up to 20 2030 and 2050. In the race zero, sustainability is going to be at the top of a lot of businesses agenda. And I want to just want to make sure they’re there to help them every step of the way.

But good to know I You’re right, I think it is the beginning of the journey. And lots of people are kind of waking up and thinking about it now. You know, it’s been something that’s been talked about for many years. Yeah, so but it certainly does seem to be that that way. So this might come back to you instead of all the stuff you were talking about. But is there a project in your career that interested you the most?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I knowing you know what you guys do and what we do, you know, I do love working with the property sector in Scotland. I really do. I love the challenges that have come with that. You know, you know, whether it be that the size of their portfolio, Whether being issues through the residence or whatever it may be, you know finding great value for them now has been a really good partner for those types of business I’ve loved I’ve loved being able to work with companies in Scotland I love coming to Scotland me and my colleague Amy Brian that you know as well you know we enjoy our trips there and it’s it’s something that you know, we worked through our first property factor probably within about a year that was being set up and you know, thankfully from there with them be able to make lovely connections, relationships for more of them and it’s just a part of our business that we all love, you know, we probably have people now that specifically work on that sector. And I find it you know, I do find it extremely rewarding. And I love you know, I love talking to different people. And I’m working with great businesses in Scotland, you know, outside of that, you know, for me personally, the education sector is something that I that I’ve been extremely passionate about, we work with a lot of Academy trusts and private schools, colleges etc. And for me, there’s, there’s, there’s the one side of that, as far as service is concerned, which is, you know, helping them to secure their energy and, you know, for locking out their greener. But there’s also the other side where I will, you know, as part of our service, I offered to go into schools and talk to assemblies, go going to a science class on energy and give tips on how they can save energy at home. And, you know, we just got bids offered as part of being one of those ones clients, you know, even myself or, oh, Amy or someone else, you know, we can bring value to these schools in other ways, we hope it’s not just about the cure in energy is about going in there and maybe educating the students or the teachers every day. And I really love that and I love to give back where I can and especially the integration side, you know, I I didn’t get a degree or you know, I went to university for a year and that was quite frankly enough. But you know, and and that goes for a lot of our workforce, I love being able to go into schools and say, Look, you know, not gonna pass University not talk to us, I suppose. But, but at the same time, there’s there’s lots of options, you know, what, ultimately, what you what you want is some life experience. And, you know, you want to get out there and if you want to go and train to work, then that’s great, because you can learn just as much going into work as 1617 years old as you can go into university, depending on what you want to do. Being able to work with schools, from an energy procurement side, but then to be able to give back by the kids and stuff like that as part of new Indigo sweltering, I get a huge amount of joy and satisfaction out of So yeah, that’s great happiness over the years.

Right? Okay, good to know that that that is interest. Oh, I often have the debate about the whole university thing. But I did go to college for a couple of years. But I allowed to be a programmer, I guess I did. I did computing, but but I asked Professor never being or never being a great developer. But But you know, you but I guess it helped me figure.

Yeah, I don’t know bashing people, if they want to, I always say if you want to be doctors, teachers, lawyers, whatever, then fine, you got to go because of your journey. Yeah, sure what you want to do, if you’re not sure what you want, don’t be afraid about doing an apprenticeship or fight about getting into an office place and working your way up, you know, myself, and all my colleagues did that, you know, we go into work at you know, 1718 years old and, and worked our way up in a company that we started that, you know, that’s just as good a way as learning about life and business as going to university will be so just just look at the options.

Yeah, I think to be fair, I look at my children and see, I mean, my eldest is in his fourth year Edinburgh uni. And my youngest is important within the army. You cannot get to Yeah, so So yeah, no, I it’s it’s the, you just got to take the path, you know, that you want to take? Absolutely. So. So bringing this back to that I know, you’ve mentioned property management, that’s how we know each other. And one of the things that we kind of want to talk about on here as well is what people from kind of different industries or different parts of the makeup or sorry, for the different stakeholders in providing optimized for companies to provide their service, you obviously being an integral part of that, too, to a lot of people share a huge amount of clients and in the UK. So what when you think about the future of property management? What do you see? And this could be, you know, from any point of view your point of view with Indigo Swan, or, or Personally,

I think I think for me, it’s overall generally I should imagine it’s going to become even more demanding. I think residents are just, they’re just wanting more, more more. So I think there’s gonna probably be a lot expected for property management companies going forward. You know, even though there is already that’s probably just piling to increase. I think you know, the companies just need to be equipped with the relevant You know skill sets and experience and relevant partners like yourselves and ourselves in order to support with the relevant differences and options that they have and i think you know, partnerships and relationships with with companies ICAO and Indigo Swan, for me are integral in in the future of that because you can’t do everything yourself. You know, we you know, we’ve always said we’re willing to swap LNG console, we don’t try to be experts anything else that’s that’s what we’re good at. And we’re property management and property Frank, you know, they will be stuff in their business they’re great at but they will also be stuff I need to be on our partners and stuff, like ourselves. So yeah, I think it’s gonna become more demanding, I think from an indigo Swan point of view. For me, I just think there’s gonna be more of a one and a desire around being green, I think residents probably going to put pressure on as far as making sure maybe there’s a green provider to the communal areas. There, we’ve already had inquiries around Evie, charging points. You know, more residents are now wanting Evie charging points in if, if they’ve got car parks within their block, you know, people have got electric cars now. So they need something within their block that they can they can charge their car in your case, we’re definitely seeing an increase in inquiries around that. So so that’s quite interesting, I think that would just do to increase. And then I think really like around the sustainability model that we talked about, I do think it’s going to become something that the residents are going to pick up on. And I think as, as as, as the UK as a whole and scholars etc. You know, we are we are now seeing more people focus in their personal lives. And they’re making changes, I think COVID had a knock on effect to that, you know, people are now going to farm shops when they didn’t even know farm shops were thing. You know, people people, people are doing different things that they had to do during COVID. And, you know, green energy and sustainability is a big part of that. And, you know, if you’ve got a block of a couple of 100 residents, there’s no doubt in my mind a very high percentage of those myself putting the pressure on and say, Look, we need to be, we need to be more sustainable as a result. And then that also goes down into the into the property companies or the friends who can do something about it. And like I said before, we want to be here to make sure that we can support with an offer an option, whatever, whatever comes our way.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I would agree with that, I think from the TV side of things, so that has to be a kind of movement forward in infrastructure. In the area of Glasgow that I live in, and I my last car was a hybrid. And the last area of Glasgow I live in, does not have a public charging point. And I can’t and I can’t get my car to my house. So it’s just crazy. So I had to literally go pocket somewhere else and pay over about my parking permit for my area to actually charge my car. So I think there’s a lot of movement on infrastructure required as well,

there is and I think that’s why I say like some before, it’s almost the start of the journey. But I think the problem is is the press, and everything else that comes with that, you know, shout very loudly about stuff that I suppose the country isn’t quite ready for, or the countries aren’t quite ready for, you know, like, Evie is a great example. You know, you got you got throwing electric vehicles out all over the place now offering great, you know, better deals on them and all this sort of stuff. But as you said, Brian, the infrastructure is not there. Most of when you go up to about 300 miles, if you’re lucky. You know, you’ve then probably got to leave your house two hours before you would normally have to do because you’re gonna have to stop the charges. I’m on the way. Yeah, and that’s not that’s not viable. So people are probably having an electric car, maybe as their second car where they’ll have a normal car, you know, defeats the purpose, doesn’t it? Yeah. Which defeats the purpose because it’s like you don’t want to have you know, you’ve still got another vehicle or petrol vehicle or whatever, sort of feasibility What if you’re gonna have an electric car, you want to be able to take it and use it everywhere? So there is definitely some work to do. But I think obviously, because the press etc, shout so much out. You know, people are clamoring for one thing before we’re ready for it. So I think there was it was a decent work to do. But Fingers crossed, you know, fingers crossed over the next few years. But we’ll start to see that improve. And I think we’ll start to see more electric vehicles and more charging points out there. And Fingers crossed out that we’ll be able to obtain.

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally be totally me. Right. So we’ve now got to the point where Jax comes in and asks you amazing, some questions. So Jack’s over to

hygiene. So we’ve got our three quick questions that we like to. And so the first one is, what’s your biggest failure across your entire career? And what did you learn from it?

Oh, where do I start? Now? I want you to go. I don’t know for me, it’s an interesting I guess you could call it a failure I looked at as a failure. So interestingly, I’m probably about six or six years ago now so I actually got turned down for a promotion at Indigo Swan, believe it or not. And that was an interesting period of time, and I think Quite a treat to talk about it quite openly and I think there’s a lot people can take from it but you know we we’ve got to that point as a business where we were we needed to have somebody who was a commercial director internally I applied for that as it would have been a step up at the time where was the business I was on to know the person that came in in turn was not successful but why learn from it and the opportunity I had from it actually worked out best in the end I could have quite easily taken that looked at and gone You know, maybe my time Indigo Swan is not meant to be maybe it’s time to maybe it’s time to sort of move on but I fell instead Well okay, well I’m not going to do that. So what can I do and off the back of I said, Okay, well I’m not going to do that and what I want to do is I want to grab hold of the people management within the business, I want to grab hold of managing staff that we have the sponsor, we have day to day, develop them and show what I can do from a coaching leadership perspective. And I was given the opportunity to go and do that and I did that and I was successful in that and allowed the business to grow through me focusing in on that area and I think by doing that, it allowed me to allow me to learn a lot during that time I probably improved my commercial awareness I think I probably improved on the areas that if I’m honest with myself I may have been a bit short on at that time which I needed to get better at and I did all of that and if that if it had been it’d been a yes at that time. I don’t know if I’ll be sitting here talking to you today if I’m honest because I don’t know if I learned what I did and was very difficult to accept at the time the the lessons that came from it served me well allowed me to impress gain the trust and the faith of the of the team and then allow me to move through to commercial director for its managing director and I think to have the have the whole team be understanding and supportive of that and to now be you know invested in Indigo Swan invested in me and for the company to be in a position is in today so for me that’s probably the one

yes, it’s probably good that you’ve gone through that from a team perspective perspective you know, when people have seen you take that on the chin and then look at that story to tell to them now as well which is

resilience resilience is so important and I mean there has never been a more important time than over the last 18 months I would say but you know being resilient is such an important trait for people to have because you know everything’s not always going to go your way for me it’s about Yeah What do you like you say what do you what do you learn from your failures? What do you learn from your mistakes and and what can you do to make that positive experience and a positive happening in the future?

Yeah, great. So our second question is if you rule the world for the day What would you do?

Wow it’s a big question that now you see for me for me I ideally today I probably turned back the clock 18 months Yeah, I think if I was perfectly honest, I probably turn back the clock 18 months and assume COVID never happened. Yeah, I think that would be a positive. Without dwelling on the COVID piece I would probably create a Christmas every quarter. Because I love Christmas Christmas. Christmas is my favorite time of year. But but it is only one day a day long you have the festivities leading up and I probably like the lead up to Christmas more than the actual day but I think a Christmas every quarter in Korea what you want one can be Christmas you know, the others can be called something else but a question was like they were you know, there was a little bit of small gift giving, but you just all get together as a family or its friends or whatever. You’re not at work now. You got some time to celebrate something I would probably introduce a quarterly Christmas.

Nice. Yeah, that’s an interesting idea. Why don’t you

Okay, let’s do it.

We can exchange photographs.

You know, I’m always on my launcher. When we’re doing Indigo Swan Callie Christmas, I’ll send you some pictures.

So when you’re 70 and look back at your life and all these classes that you’ve had. You’d be glad you did a few plays off something by the lady or something that you want to do.

Yeah, somebody asked me recently, what what would you want your legacy to be? That’s quite big question. For me. I’m 38 years old. So I like to think I’ve got a little bit of time to go. But for me, my answer is quite simple is for anybody that I’ve ever worked with. When they get to the point that I have grandchildren and their grandchildren ask them about what they used to do. They say that they used to work for Geico James graves, and it was the best time they’d ever had. And if they can say that and they can tell their grandkids that then I feel that if so exceeded and I feel I bought value to as many people’s lives as I possibly can. And given them a happy and caring working environment and career that I look back on so fondly that they tell their grandkids that yeah, that that was what life was like working for James Grimes.

Oh, that’s nice.

That’s not really Yeah.

How does fatherhood

go? Oh my god. Yeah, it’s great it’s been six months it’s been it’s been amazing it’s something that my wife and I we’ve had our journey to get over the last four years or so and when COVID it we didn’t necessarily think it was gonna happen. And then it did. Amazingly it did and it’s you know, it’s been absolutely wonderful and I love it and little Serbia’s is just amazing and you know just being able to spend as much time together as we can you know, it’s now that thing of it was lovely beginning because I was at home all the time and now I’m in the office three days a week and you know you missed you feel like you miss out on different bits of pieces, but it’s just like I made the time I got home to have a bit of time with him. I think you know, I think weekday weekend morning that Mrs. Graves have an hour lay in and, and take time in the mornings and have some fun with him. on the Saturday Sunday mornings, which I really enjoy him. Yeah, it was it’s been an extremely rewarding experience and something I always wanted. I always wanted to be a dad, but it’s been it’s been even better and even more than I ever would be.

That’s great. Listen, I really appreciate. Excuse me. I’ll do that again. Really appreciate you coming on James. That’s absolutely fabulous. great to talk to you about gems, 20 1218 months, and with any luck with any luck. There’ll be a conference next year. So I’m sorry, that isn’t that is face to face. And then we can grab another. Jacko is

Brian we’ll get into JD absolutely Jax. If you want to come along, please do.

Write like

Cheers, guys. Thank you very much.